Fictional Universes

Employer in fiction: Related question

2008-07-21T17:57:51.0000Z

Why not just use the fictional employer type?

Employer in fiction: Related question

2008-07-09T18:14:30.0012Z

Sure - I'll put it in our queue.

Employer in fiction: Related question

2008-07-09T12:53:03.0000Z

Thank you! Could you add a property for staff/faculty/teachers?

Fictional Character: Education?

2008-07-08T23:49:00.0000Z

I've done this, but without separating the fictional topics from the real-world topics: http://www.freebase.com/tools/schema/fictional_universe/school_in_fiction.

Employer in fiction: Related question

2008-07-08T23:48:21.0005Z

Here you go: http://www.freebase.com/tools/schema/fictional_universe/school_in_fiction

Employer in fiction: Related question

2008-07-07T20:10:05.0000Z

Thank you, jeff!

Employer in fiction: Related question

2008-07-07T18:52:38.0000Z

This is the second request for this in something like a week. There isn't currently a type for this, but I'll add a task for it to my list of things to do!

Employer in fiction: Related question

2008-07-05T16:33:26.0005Z

Is there anything like this for modelling fictional students of real schools/universities? e.g. Tom Brown went to Rugby and Oxford.

Employer in fiction: Fictional Universe property?

2008-07-01T17:41:25.0000Z

I understand your point, and from a certain perspective, it would be the most accurate way to model fictional things. We actually had modeled fictional settings this way, for the same arguments (e.g., the London of the Sherlock Holmes stories is not the same London as in the film "About a Boy", even though they're both fairly realistic portrayals of the actual city, which is again not the same thing). But it turned out to be extremely cumbersome for users, and hard for many people, even experienced data-modelers, to really understand. So everyone pretty much just used the actual locations for the fictional settings. I worry that the same thing would happen with employers and education. It would also result in an extremely large number of instances of Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, and Yale, each pertaining to a single universe.

Fictional Character: Education?

2008-07-01T05:36:32.0000Z

I would prefer that the fictional topic be seperate from the real-world topic. i.e. University of Cambridge in the James Bond Universe be a seperate topic from the real University of Cambridge.
Perhaps 'educational institution in fiction' could have a 'based upon' property to link the fictional and real-world topics?

Employer in fiction: Fictional Universe property?

2008-07-01T05:33:16.0000Z

Surely the fictional employer should be a seperate topic?
e.g. James Bond works for MI6. MI6, as a fictional employer in the James Bond universe, should be a seperate topic from the real-life MI6. If the two were together it wouldn't be clean and could be very confusing.

Perhaps a 'based on' property, similar to that of the fictional character type, is required for the fictional employer?

Employer in fiction: Fictional Universe property?

2008-06-30T19:45:20.0012Z

In principle I think it's a good idea, but I think we left the property off originally because a lot of fictional characters are said to have worked for real-world employers, and having the fictional universe property on those topics might be a bit strange. Although with the current client UI, this might be less weird.

Fictional Character: Education?

2008-06-30T19:42:21.0012Z

An "educational institution in fiction" type could work -- we've used that locution a few times for types that can have both fictional and real-world instances.

Fictional Universes: Planned Characters which were never included in the published version

2008-06-28T21:40:47.0012Z

I wouldn't add them myself. We do include deleted scene performances in films but do not attempt to capture in Freebase performances planned but never written/performed/filmed, that's datum that is just too nebulous and conceptual. I would consider including characters and concepts that were in a published work that were edited out in subsequent editions.

If you really feel it is important to capture this, you could create a new type for Unrealized Fictional Character and have as an enumerated property the status: edited out/never written/occurs in work destroyed/unsubstantiated claim...

Fictional Universes: Planned Characters which were never included in the published version

2008-06-28T16:50:37.0005Z

I've been busy and have been extracting all the characters of Atlas Shrugged from the topic 'List of Characters in Atlas Shrugged' (http://www.freebase.com/view/en/characters_in_atlas_shrugged)

However, there are a couple of characters (listed at the bottom of the wikipedia article) who never appeared in the published work. They were cut by the author and are irrelevant to the final story.

How do I represent their unpublished/cut status?

Should I be adding them to the book's fictional universe?

Fictional Character: Education?

2008-06-28T13:47:06.0005Z

Could we have some way of linking in the educational background of a character? i.e. an education property.

My first thought was that we would need a 'Fictional Educational Institution' type, but that would not cover characters who were educated at real world institutions. e.g. James Bond at the University of Cambridge.

I think we therefore need an 'educational institution for fictional characters' type for the property.

Employer in fiction: Fictional Universe property?

2008-06-28T13:39:26.0005Z

Could we add a fictional universe property, so that the employer can be linked to the correct fictional universe?

Possibly also a fictional works, so all works which mention this employer can be credited?

Fictional Universes: Possible properties for fictional setting...

2008-06-17T01:40:17.0012Z

I'm interested in the filming location for fictional settings. See the Fictional Settings Real Places domain I set up here. The question is, assuming this seems like useful information, whether the types/properties I've created there should reside in the Fictional Universe domain instead?

Fictional Universes: Naming Fictional Characters

2008-05-14T19:05:50.0000Z

duck1123's types sort of do this but their names have are somewhat subjective (e.g., "primary") and therefore not as useful as they could be. Also see the third linked Batman topic. That redundant topic has an "Alternate persona" type that contains info that should really be linked to the first Batman topic but can't because that one is attributed with Bruce Wayne characteristics.

I prefer the way that Barbara Gordon is described compared to the way that Batman is described. For the most part, Barbara Gordon is a character that is distinct from Catwoman and Oracle but linked to them through alternate identies. I would just rename "Primary identity" to "Identity".

Primary identity is important in terms of who is most commonly associated with the other identity. There should be a way to distinquish that Bruce Wayne is the primary identity of Batman and not Jean-Paul Valley. However, that info may be better pulled from the data in terms of # of story lines or similar value. For example, who is the primary identity of Witchblade throughout history?

Fictional Universes: Naming Fictional Characters

2008-05-14T17:33:33.0007Z

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "an identity type with an alter ego property that links multiple identities" essentially what duck1123's types do?

One "primary identity" with multiple superhero identities seems pretty straightforward: see Barbara Gordon. But the more complicated issue is when one superhero identity is assumed by multiple people. Is the Batman of "Batman Beyond" (Bruce Wayne's son in that continuity) really the same as the original Batman? And is either the same as the Batman persona assumed by Jean-Paul Valley while Batman/Wayne was temporarily out of commission?

The question of alternate-Earth Batmen seems more straightforward -- different characters with different alternate identities. So the alternate Batmen would have alternate identies of Earth-One Bruce Wayne and Earth-Two Bruce Wayne as appropriate.

I agree that pseudonyms are different than this. I think Faye's suggestion was simply that common use should determine the topic name, which I think is the right answer if we use the simpler model. But I'm inclined toward the alteregos model if we think it can work.

Fictional Universes: Naming Fictional Characters

2008-05-14T03:07:13.0000Z

IMO, all egos deserve their own topic pages. How about something like an identity type with an alter ego property that links multiple identities? "Primary identity" would then be determined through other properties and the purpose of the declaration. This would allow Batman to have properties that are distinct from those of Bruce Wayne but they are still linked through an informative property.

Batman is a good case. Many of his story lines focus on whether Batman or Bruce Wayne is the primary identity. Both could be considered "secret identities". One is a caped crusader, the other is a public figure and never the 'tween shall meet (except in the Bat Cave, which is neutral ground).

I would not attribute Batman as the owner of Wayne Industries. Whether or not Bruce Wayne could be considered a superhero or detective is a matter of debate.

On the flip side, citizens of Gotham are curious about the secret identity of Batman and they don't know to be curious about a secret identity of Bruce Wayne.

Sting is an interesting case.. I don't really see Sting as an alter ego of Gordon Sumner. Sting is just a pseudonym/alias. Compare that situation to the acting roles that Sting/Sumner has played in film and television.

There are some superheroes that have multiple “primary identities”, and some “primary identities” have donned the costumes of multiple superheroes. Does the model handle those cases? It sort of does but not that well. See Batman vs Batman vs. Batman. Maybe addressing these situations could help refine the model.

Fictional Universes: Naming Fictional Characters

2008-05-14T00:31:47.0007Z

Personally (and I stress personally because it's by no means any kind of standard), I think it makes sense to use the better known name as the name of a topic. I apply this principle to real people as well as fictional characters. Additional names can always be added as topic aliases ("also known as").

There's a practical side to it. People are more likely to talk about (and search for) "Spider-Man", "Mark Twain", and "Sting" by these names, than by the lesser known "Peter Parker", " Samuel Clemens", and "Gordon Sumner". There's less information associated with the lesser known names. As an unfair example, I just searched for music on Amazon using "Gordon Sumner", and not surprisingly none of Sting's well-known albums showed up.

Fictional Universes: Naming Fictional Characters

2008-05-14T00:01:30.0000Z

I don't think there's a standard for this at all. User duck1123 has created a few types that can equate alter egos to each other. See his types Primary Identity and Alternate Persona.

Fictional Universes: Naming Fictional Characters

2008-05-13T23:38:27.0012Z

Is there a preference on what the main name of a Fictional Character topic such be? Does alias or superhero name take precedence over real name?

Fictional Character: Add property: Date of Birth

2008-04-29T23:55:30.0000Z

Well there is somthing like that by user duck1123

Should it be a topic-based property or simply a text-based propert (there are some topics existing for some of the more well-known alter-IDs).

Fictional Character: Add property: Date of Birth

2008-04-29T23:19:45.0007Z

How about an alter-ego property? This would come in handy for superheroes. Seems that this is being stuck on as an alias right now, but there are enough superheroes that it might as well be a property, right?

Fictional Universe: Created by?

2008-04-07T21:28:19.0007Z

Go wild. I've added the property and a new type, "fictional universe creator".

Fictional Universe: Created by?

2008-04-07T15:16:24.0012Z

+1 on this request ... I was playing around with the Dune Universe, and I thought it strange that we could not enter Frank Herbert as the creator of the fictional universe.

Fictional Universes: let's not conflate the work of fiction with it's universe...

2008-03-27T22:43:02.0007Z

It's a bit of a judgement call, well known (ie fictional works that have inspired a myriad of fan-fiction and/or authorized novelizations of cannon-based/non-canon storylines) tend to have a topic instance already in existence...Firefly might have an existing 'verse but I couldn't find that Brazil has one.

One could mark the Brazil topic for a split or better yet we can remove the fictional universe type association as it seems to have little value at this time.

The Simpsons topic is based originally upon a Wikipedia article that is about the TV show, history, cultural impact other media, etc...It almost is a universe topic, just heavily weighted towards the TV series aspect. It can easily be marked as a split, but as is, it could remain a multi-typed topic.

Fictional Universes: let's not conflate the work of fiction with it's universe...

2008-03-27T04:34:06.0007Z

I'm seeing this a lot (Firefly, The Simpsons, Brazil, etc). Are the statements above still valid, and should we have separate universes for all of these?

Fictional Setting: Fictional Location

2008-03-24T20:38:03.0000Z

This is a good point; "fictional setting" should include those fictional locations that aren't actually used as a setting, assuming that they are of sufficient interest for someone to enter, despite the fact that the name is "setting" rather than "location".

Fictional Setting: Fictional Location

2008-03-23T20:39:54.0007Z

I agree. One problem is that not all fictional locations are settings of stories. They may just be reffered to in fiction, for example.

Fictional Setting: Fictional Location

2007-12-12T18:06:25.0000Z

This was a deliberate choice on our part. We chose the name "fictional setting" because it's accurate for all places that appear in works of fiction -- San Francisco is the setting of many works of fiction, but it is not itself a fictional place. "Fictional location" would only be accurate for wholly imaginary places like Middle Earth or the planet Vulcan.

Fictional Setting: Fictional Location

2007-12-12T06:46:12.0005Z

I'd like to suggest that either you rename this type "fictional location" or at least set up an alias of that name.

The rationale for this is, all of the other "setting" types are called "location". This would keep the names consistent.

Fictional Universe: Locations vs Contains fictional settings

2007-11-29T19:54:46.0020Z

This appears to be a mistake. I'll hide the extra field and make sure that any data is moved over. Thanks for pointing this out.

Fictional Universe: Locations vs Contains fictional settings

2007-11-28T18:04:42.0005Z

What's the difference between Locations and Contains fictional settings? Both link to a fictional Setting.

Fictional Universes: Bridging reality and the fictional universe

2007-10-08T22:07:40.0007Z

Hmm, the property "Based on" expects a "Person Or Being In Fiction" in the fictional universe. Is the correct usage, then, to cotype a real Person in the People domain as a "Person Or Being in Fiction", which is then linked to the fictional character(s)?

Fictional Universes: Bridging reality and the fictional universe

2007-10-08T21:54:16.0000Z

Um, Faye? There is a "based on" property on "fictional character" for just such a purpose. We tried having it on fictional setting, but it turns out to be much more confusing, and even with documentation lead to more bad data than good.

Fictional Universes: Bridging reality and the fictional universe

2007-10-08T21:53:08.0007Z

So if I am following you correctly we should have a three John Nash's in the Freebase.

Real John Nash
Fictional John Nash (based on the real John Nash)
Performance John Nash (Performance by Russell Crowe, based on Fictional John Nash)

Fictional Universes: Bridging reality and the fictional universe

2007-10-06T00:09:38.0005Z

Many fictional characters (among other things) have real-world inspirations. This is especially true in biographies and "factions" (fact-based works of fiction). I'd like to see a property (like "Based on") that links the fictional character and the real world person, such as the main character in "A Beautiful Mind" to the real economist John Nash. The same can be said about Fictional Setting -- for example the fictional New York in "Gangs of New York" is based on the real New York City -- but I'd be happy just to see the property added to Fictional Character as a start.

Character Occupation: Why Two?

2007-08-15T21:01:33.0011Z

What is the difference between "Character Occupation" and "Fictional Job Title"?
This seems to be a pretty fine distinction for the "Fictional Universe" types,
which are otherwise fairly broad. I wonder if these two should be merged.

Fictional Character: Add property: Date of Birth

2007-08-09T22:06:35.0007Z

(Sorry, meant to link to the other thread on historical persons.)

Fictional Character: Add property: Date of Birth

2007-08-09T22:05:30.0007Z

In this thread, they even have the same problem for real historical persons: "Take "Person": where their dates of birth and death are not known, the dates in which a person flourished is standardly used to disambiguate them." They want to specify the birth date as "Qing Dynasty". This will probably be solved by splitting out a separate type (like Living Thing) that defines Birth Date and which the Person type includes. (Then you could mix in a different type that defines the different kind of birth date that you need.) The relevance to "contextual assertions" still applies. If you have a type for real Living Thing (with a birth date), will a user be afraid to use it on a fictional character? Right now, they should be afaid because it implies the character is real like all the other topics with the property. But the problem is solved if the character uses the same type as real things, but asserts the birth date in the context of the fictional universe (so it doesn't come up ono searches for "real people born on this date").

Fictional Character: Add property: Date of Birth

2007-08-09T21:39:13.0007Z

I don't think this example would actually be solved by assertions, since regardless of whether we implement assertions or not, we still need a type to hold the data, and we currently lack a type that could be used for both real dates and dates in fictional calendar systems. It does seem like people want to enter this data for fictional characters, so it's worth trying to model a type we can use. A compound-value type with two properties might suffice -- one of type "datetime" for fictional characters in universes using the Gregorian calendar (AND who are born within the range 10,000 BCE - AD 9999), and one or two for all others. I have a bazillion things on my plate right now, but if I have time, I'll play around with it.

Fictional Character: Add property: Date of Birth

2007-08-09T20:10:11.0000Z

This came up on a couple Fictional Character topics where someone wanted to give a birth date so they had to make the character a Person too, which is a no-no. To beat the same drum again: This problem is solved by allowing users to use the existing types for Person, Education, Politician, Author, etc. etc. on a fictional character - just put the assertion for the bithdate or "term of office as president" in the context of the fictional universe. In everyday life, people put properties, not only on topics, but on assertions. Quotation: "President Bush says there are WMDs but the French prime minister says there are not". Citation: "According to the US Census, the population is 100,000". Fictional assertions about real things "In the universe the 'Independence Day' movie, the Empire State Building is destroyed on July 2, 1996". (Wouldn't it be great to put this assertion on the real Empire State Building topic without having to create a separate type for 'Fictional Building' when we have to make a separate topic?)

Fictional Universes: LBJ's secret love child. Am I doing this right too?

2007-08-09T18:50:53.0007Z

(Try again...) I'll copy the example from my post below:

6. Who wrote the book Venus on the Half Shell? According to amazon.com, it was Kilgore Trout. But this is an attribution to a fictional character created by Kurt Vonnegut. It was really written by Philip José Farmer. How to handle this? Do we need a 'Fictional Book' type so that there can be a topic for the fictional version of the book? No. It's easy if we put the assertion that Kilgore Trout wrote the book in the context of Kurt Vonnegut's fictional universe. This requires Freebase to show properties on assertions, not just on topics.

Fictional Character: Add property: Date of Birth

2007-08-09T18:50:51.0007Z

The problem here is that lots of fictional characters exist in universes that don't use the Gregorian calendar, so we'd need to find a way to capture Gregorian dates, Stardates, Middle-Earth dates, years A.F. (After Ford), etc.

Fictional Universes: LBJ's secret love child. Am I doing this right too?

2007-08-09T18:49:09.0007Z

I'll copy the example from my amazon.com, it was Kilgore Trout. But this is an attribution to a fictional character created by Kurt Vonnegut. It was really written by Philip José Farmer. How to handle this? Do we need a 'Fictional Book' type so that there can be a topic for the fictional version of the book? No. It's easy if we put the assertion that Kilgore Trout wrote the book in the context of Kurt Vonnegut's fictional universe. This requires Freebase to show properties on assertions, not just on topics.

Fictional Universes: Fictional Musical Artist?

2007-08-09T18:42:41.0007Z

See my . I'll add a similar example along these lines that could be solved by making the context of an assertion visible.

6. Who wrote the book Venus on the Half Shell? According to amazon.com, it was Kilgore Trout. But attribution is to a fictional character created by Kurt Vonnegut. It was really written by Philip José Farmer. How to handle this? Do we need a 'Fictional Book' type so that there can be a topic for the fictional version of the book? No. It's easy if we put the assertion that Kilgore Trout wrote the book in the context of Kurt Vonnegut's fictional universe. This requires Freebase to show properties on assertions, not just on topics.

Fictional Universes: Fictional Musical Artist?

2007-08-09T18:14:22.0007Z

This is a complex issue, all right, and I'm sure that Ali G isn't the only such instance. I do think that this is a similar problem to the use of pseudonyms, although with an extra layer of complexity. It's valuable to know under what name a work was produced, both for cataloging-type applications, as well as if you just want to find a book on a shelf somewhere and need to know the name it was published under. But it's also important for people who don't know that a name is a pseudonym to be able to find works by that person published under other names. (Also, sometimes pseudonymous works are reprinted under the author's real name, and we need to be able to assert both that the work has been published under different names, and that it is the same work.) We haven't come remotely close to solving this issue, so any suggestions would be welcome.